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Post by Tabris on Feb 8, 2009 17:23:46 GMT
I really do believe PH had a good reason to be in the game. I just had two problems with it
A:I still have issues with the mega cool super awesome sweet pose in the hotel. I liked the explanations given in this thread though. Good job on those
B: He wasn't in it enough. Like the Butcher in Origins, if they had just given him one or two more parts in the game it would have felt a lot more fleshed out and proper.
As a whole though, I enjoy his prescence in the game, as well as the bogeyman history given to Pyramid Head. Makes sense when coinciding with the executioners in the towns history as well. I'm not surprised the parents when they left town started telling children tales of the 'bogeyman' and started creating metaphors for the executioners and turning them into literal monsters to scare the children, which in turn manifested itself as Pyramid Head.
Ironic, he ended up punishing the parents instead of the children.
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Post by Lolli on Mar 3, 2009 22:32:36 GMT
If he had appeared more often I would have though it was for something other than to cash in on fanservice
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yaygob
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Post by yaygob on Mar 7, 2009 18:23:10 GMT
I agree with that, actually. Yes, there may have been an explanation for him to be there. Just a shame it was such a poor excuse.
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yaygob
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Post by yaygob on Mar 27, 2009 19:51:16 GMT
Sorry to be a thread bumper, but I have just noticed how during the bogeyman ending you get to see the inside of Pyramid Heads helmet. It's covered in spikes, and sealed underneath. Explains why Pyramid Head is seen to convulse and remove it in vain, and why muffled screams are also heard from within it.
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Post by Tabris on Mar 28, 2009 20:13:28 GMT
As a reminder, can you say in specific where he tries to remove it and you hear those screams?
Can't say I remember either of those moments off the top of my head.
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yaygob
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Post by yaygob on Mar 29, 2009 18:06:24 GMT
umm, I will need to replay through it with a notepad and pen but I remember alot of spasm/jerking movements, especially when grabbing his own helmet, and muffled grunts, moans and a sort of scream/yearn at one point.
Remember when you walk into the first bit of active combat with him, in the flooded stairwell.
He makes that loud, long "oooooOOOorrrghh" sort of moan :l
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katran
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Post by katran on May 1, 2009 19:00:08 GMT
As a reminder, can you say in specific where he tries to remove it and you hear those screams? Can't say I remember either of those moments off the top of my head. He's referring to SH2. PH tugs at his helmet when James runs across him in the apartment and hides in a closet. The first time we see PH in Homecoming is in the hotel. PH sees Alex, but continues on. Why appear in front of Alex in the first place? I think that unconsciously Alex was experiencing some guilt over killing his brother, but because he had no desire to be punished, Pyramid Head couldn't do anything to Alex. Pyramid Head leaves. I just finished the game, and I agree with this. In the beginning, Alex seems to have feelings of guilt concerning his brother, but not because he remembers causing his death. It's more as if he feels guilty for leaving him, for not protecting him. He doesn't yet remember what really happened. So the guilt is there, hence PH's appearance, but it's not the right kind yet for PH to attack Alex (and the ONLY time PH attacks Alex is in the dream sequence at the beginning, and even then we can't say for sure that PH is actually attacking Alex, rather than Alex just being in the way when PH tries to enter the elevator). I also wonder if PH isn't part of Alex himself (and I don't just mean a manifestation of Alex's guilt, but a manifestation of his desires , i.e. to punish himself or someone else, as in the case of his father). Alex sees PH at times because he blames himself for his brother being in trouble. He sees PH kill his father because he blames his father for treating him badly. In which case, PH's appearance in Homecoming really isn't all that different from his appearance in SH2. Both appearances are a manifestation from the town's history or mythology based on the psychological need or want of the person seeing him.
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Post by blacky on May 1, 2009 20:05:12 GMT
I just finished the game, and I agree with this. In the beginning, Alex seems to have feelings of guilt concerning his brother, but not because he remembers causing his death. It's more as if he feels guilty for leaving him, for not protecting him. He doesn't yet remember what really happened. So the guilt is there, hence PH's appearance, but it's not the right kind yet for PH to attack Alex (and the ONLY time PH attacks Alex is in the dream sequence at the beginning, and even then we can't say for sure that PH is actually attacking Alex, rather than Alex just being in the way when PH tries to enter the elevator). I also wonder if PH isn't part of Alex himself (and I don't just mean a manifestation of Alex's guilt, but a manifestation of his desires , i.e. to punish himself or someone else, as in the case of his father). Alex sees PH at times because he blames himself for his brother being in trouble. He sees PH kill his father because he blames his father for treating him badly. In which case, PH's appearance in Homecoming really isn't all that different from his appearance in SH2. Both appearances are a manifestation from the town's history or mythology based on the psychological need or want of the person seeing him. Okay, say we go with that theory. Because of Alex's issues something was bound to show up among the regular monsters. But why in the form of Pyramid head? My understanding (based on the other games and Team silent's own words) is that Pyramid head isn't Silent hill's little henchman for hire. He's nothing more than the apperance choosen from the subconscious to be repersentative of the manifestation created by the perceiver. James Sunderland had at least some understanding of Silent hill, any time during his visit that the image of an executioner could got into his mind. Travis knows nothing of Silent hill, and sees the Bucther instead. And Heather saw Valtiel a major entity from the cult that raised her in her previous life. So why would Alex see Red Pyramid? Surely it makes more sense that Alex was for some reason seeing someone else's manifestation. Pyramid head was there to deal with the guilty members, who should be familar with that appearance. Alex didn't know anything of his intended purpose or where his family line orginated from. Even if the family members told stories of "The Bogeymen" how does Alex visualize James's Pyramid head almost perfectly? Knife and everything (The orginal exucutioners did not have those, James's Pyramid head only gains a knife after James himself gains one)
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Post by Lolli on May 1, 2009 20:37:43 GMT
PH: HOLD THE DOOOOOOR! *Stab*
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katran
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Post by katran on May 1, 2009 20:45:25 GMT
Okay, say we go with that theory. Because of Alex's issues something was bound to show up among the regular monsters. But why in the form of Pyramid head? My understanding (based on the other games and Team silent's own words) is that Pyramid head isn't Silent hill's little henchman for hire. He's nothing more than the apperance choosen from the subconscious to be repersentative of the manifestation created by the perceiver. James Sunderland had at least some understanding of Silent hill, any time during his visit that the image of an executioner could got into his mind. Travis knows nothing of Silent hill, and sees the Bucther instead. And Heather saw Valtiel a major entity from the cult that raised her in her previous life. So why would Alex see Red Pyramid? Surely it makes more sense that Alex was for some reason seeing someone else's manifestation. Pyramid head was there to deal with the guilty members, who should be familar with that appearance. Alex didn't know anything of his intended purpose or where his family line orginated from. Even if the family members told stories of "The Bogeymen" how does Alex visualize James's Pyramid head almost perfectly? Knife and everything (The orginal exucutioners did not have those, James's Pyramid head only gains a knife after James himself gains one) Since Shepherd's Glen was founded by people from Silent Hill, the executioners from Silent Hill's past found their way into Shepherd's Glen's mythology in the form of the Bogeyman. And we really cannot say that Alex had NO knowledge of where his family line originated from. He may not have known about the sacrifices or that he was meant to be one, but it doesn't seem to have been any surprise to him that Shepherd's Glen was founded by former citizens of Silent Hill. That was most likely common knowledge among the residents, Alex included. He may not have been allowed to go to Silent Hill and he may not know a lot about it, but he's at least heard of it, so he might very well be aware of at least some aspects of that town's history. Additionally, the townsfolk who left Silent Hill did so because they didn't agree with the religious beliefs there. That doesn't mean that they abandoned anything and everything to do with Silent Hill. They may very well have images of the old executioners and other items from Silent Hill's history, as that is their history as well. It's not as if PH has shown up in every SH game, so you really can't call him "Silent Hill's little henchman for hire." The Butcher from Origins is iffy, and other than that we've only seen him in 2 and now Homecoming. In addition, while PH is a representation for individuals who see him, where has it ever been said that his form is based strictly on the psyche of the individual who sees him? Do we know for certain that his form is not based on a template provided by the power in the town, and that this template can be altered based on the individual psyches of those who see him? In which case, everyone who sees him, for whatever reason, would see something very similar. At no point in the games have I seen any implication that the characters can see someone else's manifestation. I think that's a real stretch there. I don't count the flaming staircase James sees in 2 (which Angela says is always like that for her), because I think that was a sign that James was very close to realizing what he'd done, and it was a manifestation of that for him, not him seeing Angela's manifestation. As for PH's knife, as Father Vincent already stated, knives are a big theme in this game. Alex has a knife from the start (except for the nightmare sequence at the beginning, but he finds one pretty quick), and some of the monsters feature stabbing attacks. No surprise at all that his PH would carry a knife as well. Also, how can you say that Travis knows nothing of Silent Hill? He lived there as a child. His mother was hospitalized there. He definitely knew about Silent Hill. We all know that PH was put in this game because the designers thought he was cool and that fans would like it. I think they did a good job, though, of fitting him in. His appearance does make sense, even if you have to extrapolate some things. But then again, when did everything in any SH game make perfect sense and not require a little personal extrapolation and interpretation? PH: HOLD THE DOOOOOOR! *Stab* Lol!
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Post by blacky on May 1, 2009 22:44:13 GMT
It's not as if PH has shown up in every SH game, so you really can't call him "Silent Hill's little henchman for hire." The Butcher from Origins is iffy, and other than that we've only seen him in 2 and now Homecoming. No you misread that part, I simply confirmed that he Isn't a henchmen for hire, so we both agree. In addition, while PH is a representation for individuals who see him, where has it ever been said that his form is based strictly on the psyche of the individual who sees him? Do we know for certain that his form is not based on a template provided by the power in the town, and that this template can be altered based on the individual psyches of those who see him? In which case, everyone who sees him, for whatever reason, would see something very similar. Because Pyramid head isn't that important to the cult when compared to the template he himself was in fact based on. Pyramid head was nothing but men in sacrifcal robes whom's basic appearance was based on the Entity Valtiel. "When the executioners outfit that is pyramid head was designed, it was modeled after Valtiel an angel from the Indenous religion" - Team Silent via Book of lost memoriesNow if the town was providing a template for whatever purpose, then surely it would be Valtiel that people would be seeing? The one that was an actual entity in the religion? Pyramid head or "The red pyramid thing" wasn't an entity, just a fancy sacrificial robe to give the wearer the appearance of their angel 'Valtiel' Why use a avatar when you could have the real thing? That's why I don't think pyramid head's manivestation is influanced by anything more than the minds of people who see him. At no point in the games have I seen any implication that the characters can see someone else's manifestation. I think that's a real stretch there. I don't count the flaming staircase James sees in 2 (which Angela says is always like that for her), because I think that was a sign that James was very close to realizing what he'd done, and it was a manifestation of that for him, not him seeing Angela's manifestation. Now to be honest this is where things get a bit murky. Alyssa and claudia have been able to show their manivestations to other people (the whole of SH1 for Alyssa, the god in SH3 for Claudia) The games as far as I know haven't explained why they had the powers they had, so we don't know what's going on there, plus Walter was able to make his own worlds with his manivestations. The thing I was never sure of though, was the abstract daddy that attacked Angela in SH2, though it looked like one of James's, it's design seems to suggest more meaning to Angela (two figures having intercourse) But because of Angelas state of mind we may never know for sure if she really did see her dad as human or if she saw her dad as the monster if you know what I mean Also, how can you say that Travis knows nothing of Silent Hill? He lived there as a child. His mother was hospitalized there. He definitely knew about Silent Hill. Ah, I forgot about him living as a child there. I really need to play that game again But then again, when did everything in any SH game make perfect sense and not require a little personal extrapolation and interpretation? Well it just woulden't be as much fun now if it did
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katran
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Post by katran on May 2, 2009 3:25:53 GMT
No you misread that part, I simply confirmed that he Isn't a henchmen for hire, so we both agree. Ah, my mistake. Sorry. But most of the people who see PH are not familiar with Valtiel at all. They are, however, familiar with the town's history, including the executioners of which there is a picture in the Historical Society building. I do believe PH is a manifestation born from the minds of those who see him, but I also believe that whatever power is in the town has a similar effect on those people, which is why they see something similar when they see PH. Alessa, not Alyssa, lol. Hmmm, I don't know if we can necessarily say that people were seeing their manifestations per se. If that were the case, James and Alex wouldn't have seen the same nurses as Travis and Harry, because there is no evidence at all that Alessa is in the town during the times when James and Alex are. Each character sees the nurses, but each character also has some type of negative experience with nurses (don't we all, lol). However, I think you DO have a point with the Abstract Daddy. I'd forgotten about that one. I don't know if James figured out what Angela's issue was and that's why he saw it, or what. I really can't explain that one. So, other people's manifestations or not, that still leaves the question of why different people all see PH. And I still think it has to do with a manifestation of feelings of guilt or a desire for punishment (one's own or to see someone else punished), which takes the shape of the old town executioner. An executioner is, after all, the perfect image of punishment. Lol, too true. These theoretical discussions are loads of fun, even if we don't all agree (sometimes especially because we don't all agree). ;D
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Post by blacky on May 3, 2009 3:38:41 GMT
Doh! I did it again! I used to have a girlfriend called Alyssa, so I keep unintentionally spelling her name instead of Alessa. After seven years since I broke up with her you'd think I'd should of shaken the habbit.
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katran
Lying Figure
Deadly Blessing
Pyramid Head is my boyfriend
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Post by katran on May 3, 2009 3:49:57 GMT
Doh! I did it again! I used to have a girlfriend called Alyssa, so I keep unintentionally spelling her name instead of Alessa. After seven years since I broke up with her you'd think I'd should of shaken the habbit. I'm sure Freud would have something to say about that, lol!
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Post by alx on May 3, 2009 12:03:22 GMT
You know you have a court order forbidding you from shaking off hobbits... Your next offense carries a manditory sentance you'd think I'd should of shaken the hobbit.
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