THE BUTCHER and PYRAMID HEAD

[Lolli]

The only reason people scream rip-off is because The Butcher originated from a Western developer.

The similarities are there of course but in a town such as Silent Hill which has ties to the cult, it wouldn't surprise me if there were more creatures like Pyramid Head and Valtiel.

Besides, there's plenty of other creatures which could be seen as rip-offs. The dogs have appeared in every game other than two and origins but nobody complains about that. I personally think the dogs are too common an enemy.

[Tabris]

How about the nurses as well? In Origins, the nurses are straight out of SH2 pretty much. Same with the straight jacket monster.

The Butcher is an awesome, terrifying design. Depending on your stand and which ending you believe is real (although Homecoming brings problems with the bad ending being canon to an extent), you can come up with some amazingly cool theories.

Travis being a serial killer for example (although that's been discussed to death).

Pyramid Head, Valtiel and The Butcher to some extent or another all acted as leaders and watchers for the 'protagonists'. They all have a lot of similarities but they're entirely different.

[blacky]

Sept 28, 2009 14:33:12 GMT Lolli said:

Besides, there's plenty of other creatures which could be seen as rip-offs. The dogs have appeared in every game other than two and origins but nobody complains about that. I personally think the dogs are too common an enemy.

oh god the dogs piss me off. Dogs arn't scary, but they seem to terrify the locals of the country around silent hill. All the characters who manivest monsters hate dogs with the exception of James Sunderland

but I must say that the Bucther is a rip off, there's little about the bucther that isn't already present in Pyramid head. though I am strictly talking from a design point of view, he may have valid narrative reasons to exist but design wise he is just clone. now see Valtiel was the opporsite of pyramid head in the way he simply wacthed the main character without posing a threat, that made him different. But the bucther is just pyramid head in a new skin.

[katran]

Sept 28, 2009 9:11:17 GMT AlexY said:

All of them; PH, Meatboy, ValvyValty are 'angels' in their own twisted way. Valtiel is just the most obvious one.

Ooo, good point.

[Sindaiin]

The reason the dogs and nurses aren't seen as ripoffs is because no one cares about them. There's always one big monster in each game. I suppose this could all be resolved with this explanation, because this is basically what it all is:

SH monster formula-
Dozens of nurse-type monsters
Dozens of dog variations
A few unique monsters specific to the installment to keep things fresh
One Uber Iconic monster- eg. PH, Butcher, Valtiel
God - nuff said

Each one had a base at one game. Nurses generally got a good feedback after SH1, they reappear. Dogs are simply a horror staple, period. After PH... it's the SH equivalent to Nemesis. Each installment then got one uber iconic monster that fell into the "PH class" because the PH idea worked. YES THEY ARE ALL DIFFERENT I get it, but Valtiel and Butcher are PH inspired.

[katran]

Except for SH4, which has no PH-type figure at all.

But really, PH is THE most popular SH character ever created. Everyone loves him. Is it any surprise that the various game developers want to keep putting something similar in each game? And I have no problem with that, as long as it's done RIGHT. I'm not entirely happy with the Butcher character, but he does make sense to me. But in all honesty, I'd rather they just have put PH in Origins rather than a variation of him.

[Tabris]

If they put PH in Origins instead of the butcher, as a whole, I'd probably feel better about it and more comfortable with him being in Homecoming!

The design could've been a bit more unique though. The Butcher is a lot more brutal and unmerciful than PH.

[katran]

Yes, I would have preferred PH in Origins. They could have easily solidified the reason for his purpose with another appearance that way.

Still, it DOES make sense that Travis would see a different version of PH, the Butcher version, as he had not seen the picture in the Historical Society recently (not as recently as James anyway). However, that explanation also makes it more difficult to rationalize why Alex sees almost the exact same version of PH as James, since we see no evidence of a picture of the Executioner in Shepherd's Glen, and Alex states that he was never allowed to go to Silent Hill (and he gives no indication that he ever snuck off there). With that explanation, we are forced to assume that there is a picture of the Executioner in Shepherd's Glen somewhere that we just never see. And that's a dangerous assumption (even though it's the one I cling to myself).

If PH had appeared in his SH2/Homecoming form in Origins, then we could easily say that PH appears as a representation of guilt and a desire for punishment in all three games, without regards to any necessary previous visual cue on the part of the protagonist. It would then become a manifestation instigated by the town itself in reaction to the psyche of the individual, regardless of whether or not the protagonist ever saw any picture of the Executioner, and lends more power to whatever entity or power or whatever exists in the town.

And while that particular explanation could still work as it is, it doesn't explain why two people see the same version of PH, while one sees a different version (and we're not even throwing Valtiel in the mix yet).

[dreggnog]

Sept 29, 2009 0:38:40 GMT katran said:

Except for SH4, which has no PH-type figure at all.

Wha-!? Walter is way more like Pyramid Head than Valtael is. Walter tries to kill you, like Pyramid Head. Valtiel turns freaking valves for you. I just don't get why Valtiel is even in this thread, I see absolutely no resembelance between him and Pyramid Head and I see tons of resembelance between The Butcher and Pyramid Head.

[katran]

Ummm, no. Walter is NOT a PH figure in any way, shape or form. Walter is not a representation of Henry's guilt in any way. Walter is not just a manifestation of Henry's psyche. Walter is an actual human being who has become something more. He was and is real, physically. If you want to claim Walter is a PH figure, then so is every other person or creature in every game that tries to kill the protagonist. There is NO connection between the two.

As for Valtiel, as I've already stated TWICE, it is the Book of Lost Memories, a companion piece to the SH mythos that is considered official and canon, which states the connection between Valtiel and PH.

[Sindaiin]

I like the Butcher for Origins. He makes more sense than PH. The Butcher is a manifestation of Travis' psyche, not anyone else. The triangle symbology would be lost on him an in effect the pyramid would have no purpose, so what'd be the point of throwing PH in there when he doesn't adequately symbolize Travis? The pyramid helmet is 50% of the reason PH is iconic in SH2. (Not that I need to tell you guys) But I'm just saying....

[katran]

You bring up a good point, Sindaiin.

[AlexY]

I still don't approve of the idea that Travis also saw the Misty Day painting or anything similar. His psyche divided, which is (very obviously) shown with the Butcher's design - if PH in SH2 represents James' *fully formed guilt*, regardless whether it's subconscious or not, then the Butcher represents Travis' *forming psychosis* - half of him is a probable maniac, half is a lost child. Look closely at the Butcher's half-helmet and imagine the other half there. What do you get?

Valtiel has no need for any of these since he needs to *watch* Heather (or, to be more specific, the unborn God), he is no real threat to her or from her, but he *is* stemming from the same root like PH and Butcher - a physical manifestation of the town's latent power.

So yah, The Butcher is fine by me.

[dreggnog]

Sigh, I guess I see you people's point now, but I'm not happy about it.

[Tabris]

Travis DOES see the Misty Day painting in Alessa's house. He pretty much ignores it because the house is sort of on fire.

Also, James saw the Misty Day painting after he had already seen PH 3 times. That painting has absolutely nothing to do with the manifestation of PH in regards to James.

Also, 90% of the reason why I'd feel more comfortable (Keep in mind I LOVE The Butcher design and his brutality~) with PH being in Origins is because they <could> have replaced The Butcher with him and still kept the story essentially the same.

Why? Just because it'd make me feel better about his character being used in other games like Homecoming. That's really all.

Alexy also pretty much hits the nail on the head as far as I'm concerned. The Butcher could represent half conscious desires stemmed through loneliness and resentment.

If Travis is not a serial killer (judging from the bad ending) than he probably has a lot of unconscious desires to rape and brutally murder women. The Butcher more than represents that. The half helmet thing could easily represent those dual aspects of Travis' personality since it definitely wasn't done by accident.

Sometimes I also think that Valtiel is all three of these monsters since all three monsters seem to provide a certain amount of catharsis/release for the protagonists. I am in absolutely no way shape or form saying this is fact. Maybe it's just coincidence but when Travis puts the butchers knife through him or when the two Pyramid Heads kill themselves, immediately there just seems to be a sense of accomplishment in the characters psyche. Like a demon in them was finally released.

Valtiel, PH and The Butcher all seem to lead the protagonists on their journey of release. They come across as threatening but they really aren't necessarily.