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Post by patient on Aug 10, 2010 16:58:33 GMT
Everyone knows that there is symbolism behind each monster. In SH2, the abstract daddy is directly influenced by Angela's father, Thomas. One could say abstract daddy truly IS her father. Is it possible that the angels and other "creatures" are the same way? Valtiel. Pyramid head. The fukuro lady. Robbie. For the longest time, I've been wondering that if the fukuro lady is Lisa Garland, that Valtiel may be Kaufmann. Or perhaps Valtiel is Travis, since Travis was, in a sense, also close to god. Now hear me out. I know how crazy it may sound. The fukuro lady being Lisa Garland, for example--I had gone back and forth on the fukuro = Lisa theory. At one point I decided it was impossible that they were the same, but now I'm not so sure. More evidence leads up to that possibility. The biggest piece I have found is this: translatedmemories.com/bookpgs/Pg92-93.jpgAt the very bottom of the right page, it reads: It says it right there. Right there. In the first game, Lisa was suffering... and then she appeared to have dragged Michael Kaufmann down to the Otherworld with her. Kaufmann was very close to god, because he and Dahlia were two of the main people involved in it. Also, hidden behind the foggy glass in the hospital, Valtiel appears to be either hurting her or molesting her. In Silent Hill 0rigins, Michael and Lisa were caught by Travis on a bed doing drugs, I believe. I always got a sort of sexual implication from this. That's why there is a slight chance that Kaufmann may have some link to Valtiel. In all honesty, though, I don't think so. I think it's more likely that the male saint, seen in a painting in the church, is actually Valtiel. He was way closer to god because he was her doctor. I'm sorry, but I do not recall his name. He had a portrait just as Saint Jennifer had a portrait as well. Now, in the case that Lisa is merely meant to suffer forever in the Otherworld, it makes sense that monsters just abuse her to fulfill that purpose. In the fukuro video, Pyramid head is responsible for the abuse, and then in SH3 Valtiel takes over. As for The Red Pyramid Thing, I think he is Jimmy Stone. Pyramid Head's twin, then, would be George Rosten. Why do I think that? For this particular reason. images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20090415161235/silent/images/7/78/Jimmy_Stone_02.jpg He was the priest that was nicknamed "The Red Devil." He was the one who sacrificed sinners. As of other creatures, like Robbie, I'm not sure who they could be. I do know that any robed bodies seen hanging around, like in SH1 and SH3 have a connection to Valtiel, however.
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Post by Lolli on Aug 10, 2010 19:57:33 GMT
You have an interesting theory. It has been stated on numerous occassions that the nurse you see whilst climbing the hospital ladder is Lisa. The book of Lost Memories pretty much supports this theory as canon.
What I don't understand is why Lisa is made to look like a generic nurse instead of having her traditional strawberry blonde hair and attire. I'm also puzzled as to why she has to suffer? I can't think of anything she did particularly wrong.
Kaufman hated what Dahlia was doing. He didn't want God to be born so to become the aid of God in SH3 seems a little strange. The Saint theory you mentioned seems much more plausible.
Although I agree about Jimmy Stone, in the game PH constantly stalks James and it wouldn't make sense if he were Jimmy. Anyway, I always saw PH as resembling James. He's James' dark double punishing himself for what he did. Though Jimmy Stone being in charge of punishing sinners is something I didn't know about and it does make some sense.
But if it were Jimmy then why does he appear as PH in this game and a ghost in SH4? Is it simply the town messing with the protagonists or did he appear to James as PH because James willed to seek atonement?
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Post by dreggnog on Aug 11, 2010 3:40:20 GMT
^ Kaufman didn't want God to be born? By that theory, in a way he would be very much like Vincent. Now that I think about it, I realize I had no idea why Kaufman betrayed Dahlia at the end of the first game
It feels to me like he was a full member of the cult and wanted God to be born at one time, but later changed his mind when he saw how much evil that event would bring.
During the discussion in the first game about the two halves of the soul, Kaufman is present and seems like he wants Alessa and Cheryl to come together, and is angry at the idea that it might not work. (I think it's also possible that Dahlia may have simply screwed him over in terms of money or drugs or something, and that's why he betrayed her.)
Also, there was a little blip in there about Valtiel possibly being Travis, which I see as impossible, as Silent Hill 3 came out far before Origins. There's no way Konami could predict the existance of Origins and Travis Grady then. At the time, they didn't even think they would make a Silent Hill 4.
Overall good ideas, but some things I'm just skeptical about.
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Post by patient on Aug 11, 2010 4:31:00 GMT
Also, there was a little blip in there about Valtiel possibly being Travis, which I see as impossible, as Silent Hill 3 came out far before Origins. There's no way Konami could predict the existance of Origins and Travis Grady then. At the time, they didn't even think they would make a Silent Hill 4. You're absolutely right, we shouldn't consider the later non-Japanese games canon. I normally don't do that, but I liked Silent Hill 0rigins enough that that thought slipped through. When he is crawling around, his movements are similar to Valtiel's. Maybe that's why I thought I'd bring that up. I don't usually view a lot of what SH4 offers to be canon, but some of it seems to fit very well into place with the previous games and I accept those things. Silent Hill 2 left the person behind the red hood a secret, and I think it's okay that they probably made that person out to be Jimmy Stone in SH4. Yes, my opinion is that Pyramid Head simply stalked James because James sought punishment. Since he had visited the historical museum before returning to Silent Hill to find Mary, the image of the executioner stuck with him and then became The Red Pyramid Thing. That is a popular fan theory, and I like it very much. It makes sense to me. There was no way of him knowing about the man behind the mask, because the work's title doesn't include him. Maybe it had a description, but James overlooked it. Also, about Lisa suffering--I don't know why it had to be that way for her. All I know is that she died suffering, and the memories she left behind were all of suffering. Perhaps Michael Kaufmann did that to her with that intention. He is the reason she has to be tortured forever in The Otherworld. Why did he have to do that to her? I hoped she really kicked his butt when she dragged him down with her.
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Post by dreggnog on Aug 11, 2010 4:50:47 GMT
^ I also rather like that theory of Pyramid Head, because it explains how the historical truth of that painting is possible while keeping the storyline of SH2 psychological.
However, another theory is that the painting that James originally saw actually didn't feature Pyramid Head but rather an ordinary (but memorable) human executioner, and when James came back to Silent Hill looking for Mary and found the picture, after several encounters with Pyramid Head, his subconscious put Pyramid Head into the painting, to give his role in the game further significance and power to James.
It's also possible that Pyramid Head has actually exisited since the execution days and the Pyramid Head in the painting is the same one who stalks James. After all, Pyramid Head was only able to die (possibly) when he killed himself, he seemed invincible and possibly immortal otherwise, and could have served many purposes over the years. However, a big flaw with that theory is that if he has had many purposes over the years then he really shouldn't have killed himself at the end of SH2. If the only purpose he ever had was to be forceful symbolism for James to remember his past, then after that deed was done it would make perfect sense for him to kill himself. But if he has had many purposes over the years, why should the purpose of tormenting James be so important that he should die when it is over? A way around that flaw is that Pyramid Head didn't really die when he killed himself, but rather it was just another form of symbolism, to show James that he was moving in the right direction and had defeated an evil part of himself (i.e. pyramid head).
As for Kaufman tormenting Lisa, that I don't have as many theories on. Kaufman seems to become something of a hero at the end of the first game (although in Lisa's opinion it seems to be too little, too late), however Kaufman is someone who only looks out for himself. I don't think he is evil for the sake of evil, I would believe he would only cause Lisa torture in the afterlife if there was something in it for him. (Perhaps some form of magic based on Lisa taking care of Alessa. Perhaps there was a way in the afterlife for Lisa to help Heather in SH3, and Kaufman was tormenting her to prevent it. Far fetched I know, but I like the idea of it.)
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Post by AlexY on Aug 11, 2010 17:07:21 GMT
I think many misinterpret that line from the Book. Lisa does appear in the Otherworld along with Valtiel - but IN THE FLASHBACK. Her SPIRIT (in a very loose sense of the word) lingers because ALESSA remembers her. The nurse just under Valtiel (who's spinning the valve at the time while Heather is climbing) is just yet another monster nurse, NOT Lisa. And the scene with Valtiel and the nurse behind the 'blood curtain' - well, think about it, Heather can't see what it is, but it is something she subconsciously created - if she doesn't see it, it means she repressed it, most likely because it is connected to her past; a.k.a. a religious figure (Valtiel) pokes and prods a female *nursed* body (Alessa) - God is messing with her and she doesn't even know it. If I do recall, the mirror room is on the same floor, correct? If you enter any room and then return to the hallway, the curtain is removed and you hear a brief (female) cry (or laugh? or was it heard the first time you enter the hall?) - my guess is you should notice the curtain first and then enter the room to 'continue' with the remembrance of Alessa's past. (Actually, I think the blood in the mirror room comes from the door on the mirror side to the bath, and then exits on Heather's side, while Heather's reflection is covered at the same time. The curtain from the hall is removed and used as a veil; Alessa shows herself.) Or, there's that other room in the same hall with the locker and something in it. Heather's comment (it looks so pathetic, like it's struggling...) and the fact you enter the room after seeing the curtain, could mean soemthing was shoved in very recently and is still fighting. Nurseypoo? (a.k.a. Alessa's freedom of God) In fact, the model of the nurse bound under Valtiel while he's turning the valve is the same as the one behind the curtain. When you climb the ladder and enter the first hallway, you can see something being dragged away into an unreachable hallway (beyond the giant hole at the end of the hall) just for a split second - but it's got the same legs. The same model is found in the first Otherworld entrance, the elevator scene, just as Heather enters, beyond the railings (I think). Essentially, Valtiel is dragging that nurse along and salivating over fresh meat. Virginal, nursed, godlike meat, given to him by the Mother of God. (Could it be a representation of Heather and her freedom during her childhood and teenage years, something Alessa didn't have, as well?) He then proceeds to stuff it into a locker when Heather's subconscious realises she is and was Alessa. Wow, I like this one.
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Post by patient on Aug 11, 2010 20:00:46 GMT
I think many misinterpret that line from the Book. Lisa does appear in the Otherworld along with Valtiel - but IN THE FLASHBACK. Her SPIRIT (in a very loose sense of the word) lingers because ALESSA remembers her. The nurse just under Valtiel (who's spinning the valve at the time while Heather is climbing) is just yet another monster nurse, NOT Lisa. And the scene with Valtiel and the nurse behind the 'blood curtain' - well, think about it, Heather can't see what it is, but it is something she subconsciously created - if she doesn't see it, it means she repressed it, most likely because it is connected to her past; a.k.a. a religious figure (Valtiel) pokes and prods a female *nursed* body (Alessa) - God is messing with her and she doesn't even know it. If I do recall, the mirror room is on the same floor, correct? If you enter any room and then return to the hallway, the curtain is removed and you hear a brief (female) cry (or laugh? or was it heard the first time you enter the hall?) - my guess is you should notice the curtain first and then enter the room to 'continue' with the remembrance of Alessa's past. (Actually, I think the blood in the mirror room comes from the door on the mirror side to the bath, and then exits on Heather's side, while Heather's reflection is covered at the same time. The curtain from the hall is removed and used as a veil; Alessa shows herself.) Or, there's that other room in the same hall with the locker and something in it. Heather's comment (it looks so pathetic, like it's struggling...) and the fact you enter the room after seeing the curtain, could mean soemthing was shoved in very recently and is still fighting. Nurseypoo? (a.k.a. Alessa's freedom of God) In fact, the model of the nurse bound under Valtiel while he's turning the valve is the same as the one behind the curtain. When you climb the ladder and enter the first hallway, you can see something being dragged away into an unreachable hallway (beyond the giant hole at the end of the hall) just for a split second - but it's got the same legs. The same model is found in the first Otherworld entrance, the elevator scene, just as Heather enters, beyond the railings (I think). Essentially, Valtiel is dragging that nurse along and salivating over fresh meat. Virginal, nursed, godlike meat, given to him by the Mother of God. (Could it be a representation of Heather and her freedom during her childhood and teenage years, something Alessa didn't have, as well?) He then proceeds to stuff it into a locker when Heather's subconscious realises she is and was Alessa. Wow, I like this one. Pro-Lisa=Fukuro Theory: Underlined in the white box. The image of the fukuro lady appears to be linked directly with the text that Lisa appears withValtiel. Also see that it reads with Valtiel, and not before Valtiel. Also, note that Masahiro says the nurse in the church has nothing to do with Lisa. He said church, and not hospital. The Fukuro lady clearly appears in the hospital. Anti-Lisa=Fukuro Theory: Masahiro states himself that the nurse in the church has nothing to do with Lisa. The church is merely making its presence known in the hospital. In other worlds, the hospital is half-church, half-Brookhaven--this makes sense because of the bloody altar later. Also, the video before encountering Valtiel + video is, in fact, of Lisa. All of the notes on the page could be pertaining to that video, except for the note that Masahiro makes about Fukuro being unrelated to Lisa--in which case, the picture of Fukuro is linked to that text and not to the text to her immediate right. (Phew, this stuff is complicated!) Anyway, Alex, I do believe you have me beat. Apparently the nurse is not related to Lisa after all. We should then look at her as either some miscellaneous nurse or as Nurse Rachel. Check out this article. In the second photo, black and white, the hairstyle on Rachel is very similar to the Fukuro lady's, no? However, I do not believe the body thrashing around in the locker is at all related to Fukuro. I think it's a different monster. I also do not think it's Valtiel because it's Valtiel's job to show the other monsters who's boss--he is, after all, a far, far, far higher ranking angel. It makes sense that Lisa's spirit is in the video/memory of Alessa herself.
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Post by dreggnog on Aug 12, 2010 2:34:57 GMT
I never noticed that there was a nurse as you are climbing the ladder, but I do not think that the nurse dragged through the wall and the monster cooped up inside the locker are the same. Note that both that monster and the unplugged phone are both found in lockers, so the monster may have significance to Heather just as the phone call does. I think it's very probable that the nurse bleeding into the bucket is Lisa, but I don't believe the same of the nurse when you climb the ladder or the one being dragged into the wall. There is a very strange stillness and eternity surrounding the bleeding nurse to me. In fact the idea of the bleeding nurse being anywhere but in that room honestly terrifies me.
I find AlexY's theories about the "blood curtin" and the mirror room very interesting. I never really went as deep into SH3 as I did 1 and 2.
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Post by patient on Aug 13, 2010 1:59:45 GMT
Well, I think you're right dreggnog. Just one little thing. The body dripping above the bucket is male, and I actually got from valtiel/nureinteir's website an image of him. Umm, I don't remember where the image on the site was... I'll try to find it and stick it up here later if you like. It's really neat.
And yes, I forgot to mention how much I like the veil theory too. ♥
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Post by AlexY on Aug 13, 2010 20:21:37 GMT
Well, I think you're right dreggnog. Just one little thing. The body dripping above the bucket is male, and I actually got from valtiel/nureinteir's website an image of him. Umm, I don't remember where the image on the site was... I'll try to find it and stick it up here later if you like. It's really neat. And yes, I forgot to mention how much I like the veil theory too. ♥ Yeah, the bloodletting corpse is definitely male, never had the notion it's female, let alone a nurse. I like the veil theory too, it never occurred to me before. Also, about the Book, I think someone should retranslate it... I dunno, I think the translation is misleading sometimes.
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Post by dreggnog on Aug 14, 2010 0:37:38 GMT
Oh my! I've been reading into everyone's theories wrong the whole time! I thought I had read once that the bleeding corpse was not only a female nurse but probably Lisa, and that was where everyone's theories about Lisa in SH3 came from. I suppose I never looked at it closely enough to confirm. (I fed my friends incorrect information about the game then.)
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Post by patient on Aug 17, 2010 4:04:15 GMT
Oh my! I've been reading into everyone's theories wrong the whole time! I thought I had read once that the bleeding corpse was not only a female nurse but probably Lisa, and that was where everyone's theories about Lisa in SH3 came from. I suppose I never looked at it closely enough to confirm. (I fed my friends incorrect information about the game then.) No problemo! Still makes me think that all of the Silent Hill monsters are manifestations of real people, or bits of real people. I looked up Rachel's article in the Silent Hill wikia and her haircut it just like the Fukuro Lady's in a photograph.
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Post by patient on Dec 20, 2010 3:35:33 GMT
Wow! I won the SHF Theorist award! Th-thanks!! Yet again I haven't been online as often as I should.
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