|
Post by mr. worncoat on Dec 1, 2010 10:48:47 GMT
Alright, my memory's gone fuzzy enough that I think specific information needs to be thrown down on our favorite nut jobs and how their organization works, where the gods lay in the design of it all, and what good it's done them. From what I rattling around in my noggin, there are three main branches of The Cult: Valtiel Sect, Mother Sect, and Red Sect, or one sect for each major god or whathaveyou. Valtiel Sect follows, of course, Valtiel. This sect seems to be the one managing all the income of new meat sheilds/devotees. As I think we all know, Valtiel's function is to keep things maintained. He (somebody feel free to correct me on this) is first seen in SH:3, with some of his handiwork said to be seen in the sewers of SH:1. His function largely is to usher in Samael, and, again, maintain things up until said god arrives. Their last show was in SH:HC with their footsoldiers invading Shephard's Glen to do some good ol' fashioned kidnapping. Seeing as they've gotten more air time, it's a safe bet on my part to say that there's an internal reason for that.. The Mother Sect is the one that seems more personally connected to Samael in the sense that they believe the god will be ushered in by literal birth. They seek to cultivate a sacrifice, almost getting it done in SH:0, SH:1, and SH:3, but then screwing it up for one reason or another. Claudia was their last big hitter, and their largest known asset was the Wish House Orphanage. Now, the third sect I mentioned may be something I made up entirely. But I swear there's another party involved here, be it in sect or god form. We know Samael wants to be birthed, Valtiel wants him to be birthed, and the Mothers want to help in the birthing. Metatron, if he plays any part in anything, doesn't want that crap going down but is outright useless towards anything. The only other god we have is Flauros, who's nice and cooped up in its little puzzle box thing. The only reason I give Flauros god status is kinda just because of information like this: www.flauros.com/ . It seems legit enough to grant. Plus, the description, with other such descriptions I've found, ring pretty interestingly when compared to what we have in the games. Hell, if nothing else, it's a glowy device that captures everything and anything. If there's something behind that power, no surprise here. Adding on to this, it's a thought or two worth putting in regards to the Cult's reach into places outside of Silent Hill. As the games progress, we see the influence of the town itself spreading to outlaying towns. The Cult itself (either aiding, foreshadowing, or unknowingly participating alongside this increase of territory) has been shown to be active in places as far as Mexico. Unfortunately for them, the happenings of SH:3 kind of killed off the Mother Sect's breadwinner, and Walter made out pretty well in taking care of some higher-ups in the Valtiel Sect. I have no idea what the Mother Sect's been up to, but, like I said early on, Valtiel's minions literally took a town to increase their ranks. Hardcore stuff. So, the question is, how much of this is right, how much is wrong, and how much am I missing out on?
|
|
|
Post by AlexY on Dec 1, 2010 19:05:40 GMT
I have no idea about any Red Sect. I haven't played HC yet either, but I don't actually count it as canon anyway.
THERE IS NO SAMAEL. DAHLIA LIED SO SHE COULD MISLEAD HARRY. SHE WAS STONED TOO. PROBABLY.
Valtiel is just an angel, and the Valtiel sect just focuses on him as a central idea of 'serving God'. The Holy Mother sect worships Alessa as Mother/Daughter of God and has a greater impact IMHO.
Flauros is also very disputable - it is a container of magical energy. It appeared as a demon in SH:0, but it could have taken any other form as well, it was just manifested by Alessa like a demon so Travis could subdue it and make it into Cheryl. Worshipping Flauros on its own makes little to no sense - it is not a god. It *is* a reference to the Flauros demon found in mythology, but it is not *the* demon itself.
|
|
|
Post by alx on Dec 2, 2010 7:07:36 GMT
All the texts I've read regard Flauros as an arch-daemon, and not that powerful of one either. Nothing like Mammon or that lot
So, possibly trapped in the small metal pyramid of the same name but definitely not a god
|
|
|
Post by mr. worncoat on Dec 4, 2010 10:00:29 GMT
After a few minutes manually reminding myself of a few other details, I might go and replace the title at some point. It seems like the "Order" or the "Organization" are more asthetic terms for Silent Hill's little religious group. I have no idea about any Red Sect. I haven't played HC yet either, but I don't actually count it as canon anyway. THERE IS NO SAMAEL. DAHLIA LIED SO SHE COULD MISLEAD HARRY. SHE WAS STONED TOO. PROBABLY. Valtiel is just an angel, and the Valtiel sect just focuses on him as a central idea of 'serving God'. The Holy Mother sect worships Alessa as Mother/Daughter of God and has a greater impact IMHO. Flauros is also very disputable - it is a container of magical energy. It appeared as a demon in SH:0, but it could have taken any other form as well, it was just manifested by Alessa like a demon so Travis could subdue it and make it into Cheryl. Worshipping Flauros on its own makes little to no sense - it is not a god. It *is* a reference to the Flauros demon found in mythology, but it is not *the* demon itself. Yeah, I have no idea where I got that Red Sect from, but I could've sworn there was something written somewhere about there being a red god, a yellow god.. it's foggy, I'm pulling this from memory of a thread from the old board. The funny thing is, come to think of it, Dahlia probably was stoned. They've got White Claudia as the local cash crop, that Dahlia had any amount at her disposal is more than likely. I suppose another correction would be it's Holy Mother Sect, not just Mother, and that, judging by their ownership of the Wish House, there might be a fairness between them and the Valtiel group. All the texts I've read regard Flauros as an arch-daemon, and not that powerful of one either. Nothing like Mammon or that lot So, possibly trapped in the small metal pyramid of the same name but definitely not a god Also, I'll agree with this Flauros jibe. A container with spiritual force, yeah, but nothing cementing inhabitation by a god. Good enough for me. The only other thing I could ask for at this point is some game-related reading material that goes into detail about this kind of stuff. I know it's out there, just have to find it.
|
|
patient
Nurse
SHF Theorist '10
Rusted Syringe
Posts: 179
|
Post by patient on Dec 20, 2010 3:29:07 GMT
As far as I know, there are three sects: the holy mother, the holy woman, and the Valtiel sect. My knowledge, however, mainly comes from the Silent Hill wikia. Going off of the games alone, I am a bit too confused. Like you, I don't entirely understand the cult's sects.
|
|
|
Post by mr. worncoat on Jan 2, 2011 19:39:30 GMT
There's suppose to be some written works that explain all of the essential stuff, but I can't recall what they're titled as. My only other option is to play through all the games and pour over every excrutiating detail. Honestly, I'd rather go off of what other people already have summarized down.
|
|
|
Post by blacky on Jan 3, 2011 23:49:35 GMT
Yeah, I have no idea where I got that Red Sect from, but I could've sworn there was something written somewhere about there being a red god, a yellow god.. it's foggy, I'm pulling this from memory of a thread from the old board. In the church at the end of Silent hill 3 there is a passing menction of the Red God Xuchilbara and the Yellow God Lobsel Vith. Though there is no sects for them, your confusing that with the sect for Valtiel, which dresses up in red hoods, and that's where the Pyramid head executioners comes from. That's pretty much all there is for that. there hasn't been any more menction of Xuchilbara or Lobsel Vith and prouberly will never again, I mean Valtiel was an important part of the cult and the games but since Team Silent disbanded he was forgotten about, and now we just keep having Pyramid head or a clone since the fanboys love him, so I don't see these passing menctions ever being expanded upon in the future
|
|
|
Post by mr. worncoat on Jan 19, 2011 23:21:44 GMT
Thanks Blacky, that must be it. You might also be right about it all being forgotten. I hope not. It'd be nice to see it developed, what with the Cult + Cheryl being the only solid arch throughout the whole series. Random games of endless random people going through Silent Hill would undoubtedly get boring.
EDIT: On second thought, I would ask: Any thoughts on the possibility Xuchilbara being Pyramid Head or perhaps a yet unseen entity guiding Pyramid Head, with a possible "sect" developing out of the Pyramid Heads themselves? If you remember from SH: HC, Alex gets initiated into the ranks in one of the possible endings. If Pyramid Heads can create new brothers-in-arms, how crazy would it be to think that they're doing it under direction of a higher being? That being, of course, as Xuchi.
|
|
Judas
Nurse
Captain Charisma
Posts: 191
|
Post by Judas on Jan 26, 2011 8:32:36 GMT
Thanks Blacky, that must be it. You might also be right about it all being forgotten. I hope not. It's going to be hard to carry on mythology from the old Team Silent games under the reigns of constantly changing developers. A narrative flow between games seems nearly impossible until Konami can settle on one team.
|
|
|
Post by blacky on Jan 28, 2011 3:55:57 GMT
EDIT: On second thought, I would ask: Any thoughts on the possibility Xuchilbara being Pyramid Head or perhaps a yet unseen entity guiding Pyramid Head, with a possible "sect" developing out of the Pyramid Heads themselves? If you remember from SH: HC, Alex gets initiated into the ranks in one of the possible endings. If Pyramid Heads can create new brothers-in-arms, how crazy would it be to think that they're doing it under direction of a higher being? That being, of course, as Xuchi. I had a feeling you'd bring up that old chestut. That thoery been flying around since Sh3 came out (eight years) No I don't think Pyramid Head is Xuchiilbara. Pyramid Head is an manivestation of the executioner appearance that belongs to the Valtiel sect, the point of the executioner garb is meant to repersent Valtiel, showing the cult's worship of that being. And Valtiel is an Angel, not a God. I don't think Xuchilibara would just take on the form of Pyramid head, I mean what's the point in that? Why appear as an repersentation of an lowly angel when your own appearance would have greater influance? Now what is down to souly my opinon is that there arn't any greater Gods except those that are created by minds of the cults by the powers of the town or certain individuals. They are only manivestations taking on an avatar, just like the monsters and the otherworld. Since Xuchilibara has never been manivestated by anyone, he has never existed at any point. But that's just my opinon
|
|
|
Post by AlexY on Jan 28, 2011 9:54:56 GMT
Any thoughts on the possibility Xuchilbara being Pyramid Head or perhaps a yet unseen entity guiding Pyramid Head, with a possible "sect" developing out of the Pyramid Heads themselves? If you remember from SH: HC No. HC cannot be deemed canon in any fucking possible way.
|
|
Judas
Nurse
Captain Charisma
Posts: 191
|
Post by Judas on Jan 29, 2011 0:15:59 GMT
No. HC cannot be deemed canon in any fucking possible way. What's your scale for what's canon and what's not?
|
|
|
Post by mr. worncoat on Jan 29, 2011 10:45:57 GMT
EDIT: On second thought, I would ask: Any thoughts on the possibility Xuchilbara being Pyramid Head or perhaps a yet unseen entity guiding Pyramid Head, with a possible "sect" developing out of the Pyramid Heads themselves? If you remember from SH: HC, Alex gets initiated into the ranks in one of the possible endings. If Pyramid Heads can create new brothers-in-arms, how crazy would it be to think that they're doing it under direction of a higher being? That being, of course, as Xuchi. I had a feeling you'd bring up that old chestut. That thoery been flying around since Sh3 came out (eight years) No I don't think Pyramid Head is Xuchiilbara. Pyramid Head is an manivestation of the executioner appearance that belongs to the Valtiel sect, the point of the executioner garb is meant to repersent Valtiel, showing the cult's worship of that being. And Valtiel is an Angel, not a God. I don't think Xuchilibara would just take on the form of Pyramid head, I mean what's the point in that? Why appear as an repersentation of an lowly angel when your own appearance would have greater influance? Now what is down to souly my opinon is that there arn't any greater Gods except those that are created by minds of the cults by the powers of the town or certain individuals. They are only manivestations taking on an avatar, just like the monsters and the otherworld. Since Xuchilibara has never been manivestated by anyone, he has never existed at any point. But that's just my opinon Not to be dredging through old topics, but is there anything more to know about Xuchi? Outside of a name and the color red, that is. I agree with you on what you say about the gods' manifestations through the eyes of the the cultists. At this point in the series, I'd even say that it's not really an opinion as more of a largely accepted fact. If I may keep on with my suggestion of Pyramid Head being Xuchi and your understanding of Pyramid Head and Valtiel, how's about those polytheistic religions? Multiple gods who have an understanding and subservence before the one central god. If we have Valtiel working for Samael, a quick comparison in my mind brings up Ra and whatever god helped him pass in and out of worlds. No. HC cannot be deemed canon in any fucking possible way. What's your scale for what's canon and what's not? I'm kind of curious about this, too. I know not everybody would agree on me that all the games are, without question, part of one single arch, but still, still, out of curiosity, what do you have against Homecoming (that maybe another thread could grow from )?
|
|
|
Post by AlexY on Jan 29, 2011 15:47:31 GMT
No. HC cannot be deemed canon in any fucking possible way. What's your scale for what's canon and what's not? Spoilers and wall of text ahoy. It's quite simple really - Occam's razor. It seems ludicrous at first, but all of the phenomena in SH simply fits with the theory that the Cult is a side-effect of the town's power, and not the main driving force. All of the games (and I mean ALL, including 0rigins, and even Arcade from what I know of it, possibly even Orphan) except HC share the same concept - the town has power, there's a Cult that tries to control it (and ultimately fails) and it's always about personal demons and inner conflicts expressed through the power of the town. HC straight out pisses on that, and then proceeds to shit on it, only to eat it all up and vomit it in neatly arranged packaging with whipped cream. The only way HC would be considered canon is if the "bad" electroshock mental hospital ending is the right one, but even then there are inconsistencies (if the story is about Alex and Joshua, the accident and then dealing with it, why the fuck involve the Cult anyway? It could have worked perfectly like an action-filled SM then!) If the Cult IS there and directly involved with the accident and the entire start of Alex's delusions, then that would mean the Cult had to be a very large presence in their lives - yet they're not in SH (but in a sudden huge part of lore that never appeared before in any way or shape or hint but stupidly plastered somewhere on the lake with four funding families that swore to sacrifice children to a 'demon god' to preserve themselves - that's kind of very important, wouldn't you say?) It all boils down to the start of Alex's delusions. The boat accident. The reason for it: 1.) The ring is a family heirloom of great importance and meaning - Joshua shows it to Alex. Alex doesn't like the fact he, as the older brother, didn't get it and accidentally (or even on purpose and then repressed as an accident, whatever) drowns Joshua. NO CULT INVOLVED. Alex goes crazy, goes to mental hospital, spends his days in "treatment" there. ELECTROSHOCK ENDING. Why throw in the Cult then? Is he schizophrenic all of a sudden and made up an entire Order that "stops him from saving his bro"? Wouldn't there be more elegant solutions? Why would the Otherworld be all rusty and bloody, with fire and machinery ala SH1 - the main theme should have been water. Why all of the links to SH then? They could have been from Paleville or something as tourists, why not? He could have remembered people in SH that were linked to the tragedy (Judge Halloway was the judge in his case, the doc examined Joshua, deputy Wheeler held him in custody, Elle was a counselor or something) and put them in his delusions, sure, that sounds awesome - but the characters themselves don't show any kind of deeper meaning or development beyond stereotypical horror roles (the black guy, the damsel in distress, the mad doc, the creepy mastermind judge, etc.). Shepherd's Glen in that case doesn't exist and is the "safe point" for Alex's mind before moving on to "SH" to realise the truth. That would work just dandy and I'd be pleased - hell, I'd love it. But the very next scene after the accident Alex's Dad plainly says that he was the chosen one, not Joshua - the Cult DOES matter, it DOES exist in their lives, Glen DOES exist, so does the 'pact', and all of this is...thrown in the water. Which leads us to the only option: 2.) Joshua gets the family ring, making him the only one who will continue the family line. Alex and Joshua have their struggle over it, Joshua is killed, Dad spills the beans of the ritual (so Alex surely knows of it now, even if he didn't know before), goes mad. Now, if he was in a mental hospital... Why did they casually let him go? Obviously he's still mad, right? If he didn't, and escaped, surely his family would be notified. Oh wait, that's right, Shepherd's Glen is going all crumbly with holes and is littered with monsters and everyone is disappearing! Makes perfect sense for him to get there by hitching a truck on the only convenient road. (Come to think of it, you do see Travis' truck behind a fence near your house, don't you, the one with the gas? I guess he never left! I might be wrong on this one, though.) His mother makes sense ("I miss your brother, Alex." is probably the rare sentence or two the devs thought about a bit more.), but if everyone knew about what happened, then why doesn't Elle or Wheeler have any notion of that? A death of a kid in a small town is A-grade gossip. Come to think of it, how much time has passed since the accident? Why was there no reaction immediately after the wrong sacrifice? Why did it take the exact same amount of time for the peak of mysterious phenomena just about when Alex returned? Only a very short period of time should have elapsed then - but then we have Dad's confession: "It has been four years since my last confession." Well, I love it how nobody outside SG or SH had recorded anything about strange things in them, it makes perfect sense since they're, you know, absolutely not a tourist resort of any kind. Is this the same kind of deal with James' "three years"? Somehow, nothing points to that (if there is, please say so.) Oh, and yes, everyone sees the same monsters and travel through the same worlds! Yay! That's so lore friendly! I literally have no explanation why everyone would see the same things (unless it's all in Alex's mind, but since that can't be...). Why they would travel through the same Otherworld, OK, that's more plausible, since HC implies there is a being that makes it happen, but then why would it be tailored to fit to Alex? That long labyrinth corridor makes no sense then, since it's entirely personal for Alex. If the monsters are shaped to Alex's psyche, well, why? Because he is the chosen sacrifice? OK, I can dig it. But Alex isn't the source of it! A 'demon god' is! Why not make hordes of minions donned in religious attire? The Order is, naturally, a band of serial killing murdering whackos with little to no hints of subtlety. (Seriously, the prison in SH4 was more subtle, and that's a huge badass tower.) They have an entire hierarchy all of a sudden with strict rules and no mention of separate sects or rituals - it's one big happy family everyone's in on. And of course, you can run perfectly fine after getting your knee drilled in one of the most needlessly retarded vidya game scenes I've ever seen. And patch up severe knife wounds with a medikit! I don't even want to mention the PH issue. In short - if you juxtapose every SH game (it's lore) and concepts - they can ALL fit, in SEVERAL theories even, because they stick to certain principles and they don't try to make it base and easily accessible with one major arc. HC puts everything down to Resi level with "this is what it is and you have to stop it" instead of "this is what you think it is and you might stop it". It tries to take itself seriously, it even made a good attempt of hinting that Alex isn't quite OK in the head (the tape in the kitchen, "Joey won't play with you", etc.) but all of it falls flat when, especially nearing the end, they connect everything with Cult lore too much so it's impossible to separate it from Alex in any way. It's like they gave up halfway and went all B-movie. HC cannot be canon, IMHO, because it intentionally shoves a definite arc over others, with little to no room for interpretation,and oversimplifies the entire lore to the point of self-ridicule. It's a good game, with good gameplay, some shitty design choices at times, great atmosphere, slightly rehashed music, and if it was named just Homecoming, with no SH ties whatsoever, it would be just fine as it is. This way, it spreads confusion among newer fans and makes rifts in older fans, for no good reason. *phew* Sorry, I was on a roll.
|
|
Judas
Nurse
Captain Charisma
Posts: 191
|
Post by Judas on Jan 30, 2011 6:20:31 GMT
@ AlexY
Well, I'm gonna play the rest of SH:HC before I read your response, but suffice it to say it looks like you have a good answer.
|
|