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Post by pandorasxbox on Feb 22, 2009 22:08:31 GMT
I thought Origins was a great game. Better than SH4 (and possibly SH3– but I may be jaded because I spent so much time on SH3 and never want to touch it again), in my opinion.
The story was weak, yes. It was clear that they couldn't or didn't want to come up with anything new. In many ways, the story of Silent Hill has been static ever since SH3 was released, and even SH3 didn't expand the storyline very much– a cult woman tries to resurrect God and is stopped.
But the locations and tension in Origins made it really enjoyable and atmospheric, I think. I believe it was an experimental game, never intended to be a huge series landmark, and I loved it for what it was.
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katran
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Post by katran on Feb 23, 2009 2:51:43 GMT
That's something I've always been curious about. Was her father anyone special? Why is there no mention of him? Not that he died, just nothing at all. Rather odd. And what about a mention of her being at Wish House in SH4? Didn't only orphans go to Wish House? Or am I confused on that?
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Post by St. Aatos on Feb 23, 2009 5:56:32 GMT
Personally I see her paternal lineage being caused by the following.
1. Alessa is the product of a marital rape. Team Silent has said that SH1 was influenced by Carrie, I believe namely in the relationship between Dahlia and Alessa. (In 'Carrie', the title character was the product of a marital rape.)
This might explain why Dahlia is so abusive towards Alessa. (Didn't want the child, but ultimately had to raise her anyways.)
However, Dahlia also seemed to be excited about Alessa's abilities; often even encouraging her to use them. Carrie's mother on the other hand was convinced that Carrie was linked to Satan because of her her abilities.
2. Alessa's father is one of the lesser deities. This would explain how and why Alessa was born with an extensive list of abilities and how she could manage to master at least one of them by age seven. (For a little girl she is an awfully strong leveled telepath.)
Also in nearly every form of mythology there are various gods/goddesses, angels/demons (or the equavelent) various mythological monsters, and demi-gods. Silent Hill has the three gods (The Chief Deity, Xuchilbara, and Lobsel Vith) the angels/demons (Valtiel, maybe Pyramid Head), the creatures/monsters (every damn monster in the game.)
I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to think that in Silent Hill's mythology; Alessa is a demi-god, or a half human/half demon.
Are you talking about when Walter writes that Dahlia came over to Wish House?
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Post by AlexY on Feb 23, 2009 13:16:27 GMT
As for Alessa's father, I always thought of Dahlia being...impregnated through a ritual. I don't think she has a biological father in the true sense.
Wish House was used both as a brainwashing facility and as a base for the Cult - Alessa probably spent a lot of time there. Ceremonies had to be there, close to the Naakihona mother stone, no?
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katran
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Post by katran on Feb 23, 2009 16:46:20 GMT
Are you talking about when Walter writes that Dahlia came over to Wish House? There was some mention of Alessa in a note found at Wish House. I don't remember the exact wording, as I haven't played that one in a long time, so unfortunately I can't give you the exact context. I was hoping someone who had played more recently would remember. I remember someone awhile back on the old boards had brought up the theory that Alessa was a reincarnation of an earlier person, someone who had considerable power (maybe the witch in the witch-burning portrait), and that's why her power was so strong, because she had some memory of it, either conscious or subconscious. That theory, Alex's theory, and your theory all make sense in different ways. I know in the film there was a very vague hint that Dahlia was descended from a witch, as the witch in the painting was made to resemble Debra Kara Unger, but I also know that the movie is not considered cannon, so we can't rely on that tidbit much. Still, SH3 also had a witch-burning portrait that Heather comes across at one point, so it makes me wonder.
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Post by AlexY on Feb 23, 2009 18:03:10 GMT
There was some mention of Alessa in a note found at Wish House. I don't remember the exact wording, as I haven't played that one in a long time, so unfortunately I can't give you the exact context. I was hoping someone who had played more recently would remember. I believe it was something like... "Have you found Alessa yet? How is Walter's progress coming along? Send me a report. -Dahlia" If memory serves me correctly, that is.
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katran
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Post by katran on Feb 23, 2009 18:12:27 GMT
Yeah, that sounds about right. It seems to implicate that Alessa was at Wish House, though I could certainly be jumping to the wrong conclusion.
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Post by St. Aatos on Feb 24, 2009 1:45:55 GMT
What it is, the sect of Valtiel (or rather the leaders) wanted to find both Walter and Alessa. Their plan was to have Walter perform the 21 Sacraments for the Descent of the Holy Mother on Alessa (who by this time would be Heather.)
Well, the Alessa in the game is a far cry different from the one in the movie. I do know that I once had a theory that Alessa was the reincarnation of the original mother of god. (seen in the Birth painting.)
That wasn't a witch burning portrait.
Problem with that is I know somewhere Team Silent mentioned that Alessa's birth was biological.
Wish House was the base for the sect of the Holy Mother. They were the ones who believed that God could (and should) be descended by a conjurer, and who or what was the vessel didn't matter. They used Wish House to brainwash children, and see if one of them would become the conjurer.
Alessa, along with her mother, belonged to the sect of the Holy Woman; the sect who believed that the god (or child god) would be born from a woman with supernatural powers.
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katran
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Post by katran on Feb 24, 2009 2:33:20 GMT
What it is, the sect of Valtiel (or rather the leaders) wanted to find both Walter and Alessa. Their plan was to have Walter perform the 21 Sacraments for the Descent of the Holy Mother on Alessa (who by this time would be Heather.) Hmmm...I don't think the Alessa they were referring to was Heather. If that note was from when Walter was a child (and it would have to be if Dahlia had written it), then Alessa would have been a child as well. Walter was in his 20's or 30's when he committed his first serial killings (based on his physical appearance). Then he was dead for a few years. So it's probably a safe assumption that the note was written when he was a child, some 30 years or so before. Had Alessa lived and never had her soul split, she would have been 31 during the time period that SH3 takes place. What was it then? It sure looked like a dark-haired woman being burned at the stake to me. They usually only did that with witches and heretics. I have no doubt that her birth was biological. But what about her conception? I think that's what some of us are wondering about. I think her conception was biological as well, but not necessarily with a normal, human father (though neither do I deny the possibility that her father was so normal that he just wasn't worth mentioning; maybe Dahlia even had him killed for some reason). I'm confused. I thought earlier you said it was connected with the Cult of Valtiel. I was under the impression that the Cult of the Holy Mother and the Cult of Valtiel were not exactly the same.
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Post by St. Aatos on Feb 24, 2009 3:24:06 GMT
The note wasn't written by Dahlia, it was written by either George Rosten, or Jimmy Stone. I believe that the note was written around the time (before) that incident with the cult member and Harry Mason. Meaning Heather would have been five years old at the time, and Walter would have been 18 at the time.
The thing is, they didn't know that Walter would become the conjurer until he was older. (I'm thinking they didn't realize it until he was 16-18)
Also, it's impossible for the note to refer to Alessa at a young age, for two reasons.
1. Dahlia is a part of the HW sect. She also performed the immolation ritual on Alessa practically on a whim ("My daughter could be the mother of God! Quickly! To the store for gasoline and matches!")
2. With Dahlia acting as the conjurer; Walter isn't need. (Yeah, Dahlia's the one who performs the ritual, so in this case she is the conjurer.)
This religion also burns saints. A memo in SH3 states that only members of the clergy can participate in the burning sacrifices.
Also, examine the painting more closely. The woman depicted is the Woman in White. She's not on fire; the flames symbolize that in a sense, she was born from the fire.
I believe the conception was biological as well.
The sect of the Holy Mother and the sect of the Holy Woman were opposed to each other about how God should be born. The sect of Valtiel was the mediating sect. They believed that the god SHOULD be born using both the conjurer (in this case Walter) and the mother (in this case Alessa).
Since the sect of Valtiel wasn't opposed to the sect of the Holy Mother they too were able to use Wish House.
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Post by AlexY on Feb 24, 2009 11:20:44 GMT
The sect of the Holy Mother and the sect of the Holy Woman were opposed to each other about how God should be born. The sect of Valtiel was the mediating sect. They believed that the god SHOULD be born using both the conjurer (in this case Walter) and the mother (in this case Alessa). Since the sect of Valtiel wasn't opposed to the sect of the Holy Mother they too were able to use Wish House. Wait... Holy Woman? What? Aren't there just Holy Mother and Valtiel sects? Where's that even mentioned? Now I'm confused. :/
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katran
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Post by katran on Feb 24, 2009 15:32:41 GMT
The note wasn't written by Dahlia, it was written by either George Rosten, or Jimmy Stone. I believe that the note was written around the time (before) that incident with the cult member and Harry Mason. Meaning Heather would have been five years old at the time, and Walter would have been 18 at the time. Ah, well I've only played the game once and couldn't remember the details of the note. I was going off what another poster said earlier, that Dahlia had written it. Since I can't remember myself, and will likely never play SH4 again, I have to take other people's words for it. Hmmm, well she always looked like she was in agony to me, but I concede that it's hard to tell for sure. I'm playing SH3 again so I'll pay more careful attention to the painting when I get to that part again. So there were three sects? Like AlexY, I had thought there were only two (at least, two active ones; I'd gotten the impression that there had been others over the years but that they were no longer active). I never did have a firm grasp on how the sects worked.
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Post by St. Aatos on Feb 25, 2009 2:23:02 GMT
Three main sects, yes. Is that the painting you're referring to? (ignore the yellow markings.) Because the woman doesn't even have a face. Sect of the Holy Woman, the ones who believed that God would be born from a woman with supernatural powers. It's found in "Another Red Diary" Another Red Diary topic
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katran
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Post by katran on Feb 25, 2009 13:07:27 GMT
Is that the painting you're referring to? (ignore the yellow markings.) Because the woman doesn't even have a face. It might be (and oddly, I was only able to find the link when I quoted your post, it didn't show up for me in your actual post). It's been awhile since I played. I'll have to pay closer attention this time. If it is the same one, I probably just assumed she would be in agony if she was in flames, and my memory just attached a face. Or I might be confusing her with a painting from the movie. I think there were two in that, weren't there? It's been awhile since I've watched that too.
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Post by AlexY on Feb 25, 2009 17:55:48 GMT
Sect of the Holy Woman, the ones who believed that God would be born from a woman with supernatural powers. It's found in "Another Red Diary" Another Red Diary topicWow, never seen this before. Thanks.
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