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Post by phix95 on Feb 24, 2009 3:24:28 GMT
Just played through it again. So is Ernest real? Or is he imagined like Maria? And he wanted to join his daughter, or bring her back by taking the white liquid? So was he going to kill himself (if he's real, that is)? He does mention this is a "dead end"...and then Maria opens the door and he's not there....
And when he said "James is a bad man"...was he referring to James killing his wife?
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Post by AlexY on Feb 24, 2009 11:14:26 GMT
Well, if you try to get to the mansion with James, there's nothing beyond the door that should lead to the entrance... To me, that either says James isn't meant to go there, only Maria, or that it doesn't exist entirely, but I prefer the former. Ernest Baldwin did exist - the medical books and what happened to his daughter are proof enough that he did live, and probably worked as the director of the hospital. It is also clearly suggested that he knew of the local folklore and at least some presence of the Cult. (The writing in the director's room in the hospital, along with books about the town, and the letter/wrench are links to Baldwin in James' scenario.) But the Ernest Maria "sees" is not the earnest Ernest.  His daughter died in the accident. His sadness led him to depression and obsession with bringing his daughter back to life with The Crimson Ceremony. He managed to obtain 2 items needed - The Book of The Crimson Ceremony and the Obsidian Goblet. The White Chrism is the only item Ernest did not obtain because of his own death. How he died is not explained, but my guess is most likely suicide. He found the items with the help of the Silent Hill Historical Society, where he had high connections. He most likely found The Book of Lost Memories there as well. The Society was also connected to the Cult, and this is where he first found out about the ritual. But the White Chrism eluded him for some obscure reason. He failed at his task, and now the theories begin. One theory is he died and that's that. The second; his spirit remained at the mansion and continued to haunt the grounds, searching for the Chrism. ("Stay away from haunted mansion!") The third; the town's malevolent forces used Ernest, or better yet his image, to shape Maria into what she is supposed to become. I say it's a mix of the latter two. Ernest could not leave because he still feels attached to the real world and wants to find peace by finding the Chrism. But he can't leave the mansion, and he can't communicate with anyone in the real world where he is something of a poltergeist. When Maria, a non-human being "born from a wish" directly into the middle fog world, meets him by "chance", his request can be fulfilled. Notice that Ernest avoids any talk about anything else than him, his daughter and the Chrism. When Maria finds the Chrism and delivers it to him, he thanks her, and then his next sentence is... "That James... He's a bad man." He basically tells Maria "you're his dead wife." Ernest got what he wanted, and so he needs to "repay" the town by aiding the town itself into leading Maria to the park and awakening her true purpose. This is why he suddenly changes the subject, he acts as a trigger. The "dead end" is symbolic, both of his own end in this world and Maria's end of any free will she has. Of course, as with any Silent Hill theory, this is all speculation. |
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Post by phix95 on Feb 24, 2009 19:48:00 GMT
Wow, thanks. I had forgotten the mention of E. Baldwin in the actual game. But even though he now has the chrism, he can't do anything with it b/c he's dead. So what is really the point of him finding it now? (May have found the answer to that here: silenthillforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=311)And could Maria really have any free will at all, even before meeting Ernest? It seems she does but if James brings her to be, she shouldn't be thinking for herself at all...? |
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Post by AlexY on Feb 25, 2009 17:54:45 GMT
Well, the general assumption with ghosts (if you believe in such things, of course) is that they stay attached to the world of the living because of unfinished business. Because of his strong will, his presence remained in the fog world and echoed into the real world "haunting" the mansion. He refuses to leave the real world until his obsession is fulfilled. Maria is both his tool and the tool of the town in this case; he merely uses her.
Maria, in my opinion, does have free will. She was created, yes, but she clearly shows interest in finding someone and shows unique characteristics. Her tone of voice is also slightly different if you listen closely. Up to the moment where Ernest flips the switch, she's a lost puppy as any other SH protagonist.
Think about it, you control her all the way until you bring the Chrism to Ernest. Her scenario effectively ends there, showing that the game, the *town* took control.
It's masterfully executed, when you think about it...
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Post by phix95 on Feb 25, 2009 20:54:00 GMT
Well I always thought she didn't even exist until James conjured her. So you're saying she was a real person that really lived and is now controlled by James? Because if NOT, it doesn't really make sense for her to think for herself...she's someone else's creation. Wouldn't she sort of 'bend' to James' thoughts? I'm basically just playing devil's advocate here.
That's why I was kind of surprised when I heard you could even play her...b/c she wasn't really real and was controlled, basically, by James.
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Post by AlexY on Feb 25, 2009 21:28:08 GMT
Well I always thought she didn't even exist until James conjured her. So you're saying she was a real person that really lived and is now controlled by James? Because if NOT, it doesn't really make sense for her to think for herself...she's someone else's creation. Wouldn't she sort of 'bend' to James' thoughts? That's exactly the whole point of "Born from a Wish" - she is born as a blank slate by James' subconscious mind. Before she makes any type of contact with James, she needs to be modeled accordingly, to make the "perfect" Mary. By showing her will to live, both before she knows what she is and after the trigger event with Ernest, she accepts her existence and her purpose. It's also notable that she helps both Ernest and his daughter - feeling the same for her what Mary felt for Laura. (Check out the daughter's bedroom again - she even mentioned Laura at one point, showing that she's slowly gaining knowledge of Mary and James.) This act of helping is something reminiscent of Mary and what she would most likely do; this side of Maria we see again when she meets up with James in the alternate hospital basement. ("For some reason, I feel like it's... up to me to protect her.") She was not a real person in Silent Hill. There is a poster in SH3's Heaven's Night which mentions "Lady Maria", but that's more of an easter egg than anything else. The beginning of the scenario, my guess, is a brief time after she woke up in the fog of Silent Hill. |
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Post by phix95 on Feb 26, 2009 6:24:00 GMT
Ahh. I thought she was born already knowing "what to do"; guess that's where I got confused.
Yeah I remembered her mentioning Laura. If you press action, she won't repeat it though so you have to read carefully.
The mention of Lady Maria came up in that link I posted (though it's discussing the "real" ending to SH2) and it is supposing that after James leaves SH w/Mary, Maria goes back to her "new" job, though I don't know if that's b/c James pictures her doing that job... And this is all supposing the "Maria" ending is the true ending.
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Post by AlexY on Feb 26, 2009 15:21:36 GMT
The mention of Lady Maria came up in that link I posted (though it's discussing the "real" ending to SH2) and it is supposing that after James leaves SH w/Mary, Maria goes back to her "new" job, though I don't know if that's b/c James pictures her doing that job... And this is all supposing the "Maria" ending is the true ending. I don't buy the Maria ending. Even if it were real, she would die again just like Mary sooner or later; I doubt she'd go pole dancing. |
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Post by EileenGalvin on Mar 5, 2009 21:18:06 GMT
I don't buy that either. The Lady Maria thing with the poster rather shows to me where James' mind and the town got the inspiration for the Maria we see in the Silent Hill 2 game. A woman, looking like Mary but acting like a stripper. The stripper Maria which James might have seen when he and Mary visited Silent Hill together. I wouldn't doubt James saw posters of her all over the town and thought "Damn, I wish Mary was like that!" <-- there you go.
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Post by phix95 on Mar 11, 2009 22:23:52 GMT
You're probably right. That sounds more logical.
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